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00:49Hey, good to see you.

00:49Thanks for coming.

00:50It’s another episode of wireframe.

00:52And today we’re going to be talking about what’s next now, not necessarily

00:58what’s next in design systems.

00:59It’s actually kind of what’s next for me.

01:02So as of this recording, this is the technically the 11th episode of

01:05wireframe, but I’m numbering at the 10th because of the pilot episode.

01:09So this is the 10th episode of wireframe.

01:11I’ve been releasing a wireframe episode every week for the past almost

01:15About two and a half months now, and that’s been a really nice cadence.

01:19And it allows me to make an episode basically when I have some kind of

01:24thought or something that I want to get off my chest or some kind

01:27of topic that I want to talk about.


01:30One of the reasons why I started this again was to have any particular

01:34topic that ends up on the internet or someone shares with me and immediately

01:38able to talk about it, right?

01:41So this has been a really good cadence and a really good

01:44project for me to like, feel.

01:46What it is to make these episodes out there just by myself and being

01:50able to just turn on a camera and go that’s been really great.

01:53And I’ve gotten a lot of quantity of episodes like this, right?

01:58Because you have, like I said, we have the 10 episodes with the pilot and

02:02that’s been a really nice, like exercise.


02:06But what I want to do now is reduce the quantity a little bit.

02:11In favor of upping the, the quality.


02:15And the way that I’m going to do that is.

02:18On wireframe.

02:20fm by the time that you will be hearing this recording, there

02:23will be a form on the homepage toward the bottom near the footer.

02:28And if you want to be a guest on wireframe you could fill out that form.

02:33I think it’s just name, email, and then there’ll be a box for

02:37basically what your hot take is.

02:39So that’s basically what I want to start kind of collecting ideas for what

02:44To discuss on the show and then people that I’ll select from that list of

02:49people who are submitting possibilities as show ideas, I’m going to reach out

02:54to those folks to schedule some time to just kind of have a conversation.

02:59And be on the podcast.

03:01So, like I said, I think that cadence is gonna be a lot less

03:03than what I’ve been doing now.

03:04Because, obviously, if it’s just me, I could just hit record and go.

03:08But, when it comes to scheduling the show with another individual it’s gonna be

03:13a little bit more to coordinate, right?

03:15Plus, I actually haven’t done any editing for You know, two different

03:19people to get on the show as well.

03:20So there’s going to be some learning curve that happens in there as well.

03:23And I want to make sure I have enough time to make that happen.

03:26So you can go to wireframe.

03:28fm right now and fill out the form if you’re interested, other than that.

03:32I definitely also have some people that I, I know that I want to

03:35reach out to in terms of getting them on the podcast as well.

03:38But I’m definitely looking for interesting takes that are out there

03:42that I want to you know, kind of shine some light on publicly if you’re,

03:46of course, comfortable with that.

03:48And that’s a little bit news of wireframe.

03:52So like, that’s the first thing that I kind of wanted to mention is that I’m

03:55going to again, reduce the quantity and I’m going to up the quality.


03:59The next thing I want to talk about is that my wife and I are

04:02going to be going to render.

04:04Next week.

04:05So basically when this podcast comes out in the first week or so of June

04:10the following week will be render and render is in Atlanta, Georgia.

04:14It’ll be my first time going there.

04:15I have a few of my design system friends that I know are speaking there.

04:20That includes Jina and Dan Mall and Homer Gaines.

04:23So if you’re going to be at render listening to this now look out for

04:27me and I know that the workshop that I actually selected was the

04:31TypeScript workshop in the morning.

04:34So if you’re going to be in that TypeScript workshop,

04:36I’ll be in there as well.

04:37It’s actually my first real.

04:40Push to learn TypeScript cause I’ve been like seeing it in the wild and I’m still

04:45a little bit, you know, Uncomfortable with the additional like syntax that’s

04:50being put on top of my JavaScript But I also do know that there’s benefits

04:55to the TypeScript kind of ecosystem.

04:57So I’m interested in learning TypeScript workshop.

05:02I believe that’s Wednesday morning I think that’s it.

05:05But on top of that I’m definitely going to be trying to visit my

05:08friends in design systems talks.

05:10So all three of them there, thank goodness at different times,

05:12which is going to be great.

05:13And I think actually they’re all on the same day as well.

05:16And then other than that, we’re going to be seeing the sights in Atlanta.

05:19If you have any good recommendations tweet.

05:21Over at me.

05:22Let me know what’s going on there.

05:23Apparently there’s some king of pop.

05:25That’s all the rave down there that I think we’re going to be checking out.

05:28So that’s pretty cool.

05:29And then the other thing that I’ll mention in terms of conference related

05:32stuff is later on this year There’s plans at least for me to go, maybe

05:38potentially my wife, but I know that I’m going to be making my way to converge

05:42in Brighton in the UK in October.

05:44So I’m looking forward to that, to actually go to a conference on the other

05:48side of the pond, because I actually, I’ve been to the other side of the pond with my

05:53wife for the, like the first time, I think it was last year, the year before, which

05:56was a fun trip, but now actually going for a conference is going to be really great.

06:00Cause there’s a lot of design system people that I do

06:02know that are in that area.

06:04You know, other side of the world.

06:05And I would love to meet all those folks that I’ve known on the internet.

06:09And then the interesting thing about that is once that conference is

06:11done, I’m back on a plane to go back home to New York where the following

06:15week is smashing cough in New York.

06:18So I didn’t realize how close those things were but it’ll look like

06:21I’m following Nathan Curtis around.

06:23But yeah, so I’ll be smashing conf in New York, it’s my favorite conference

06:27that I’ve been going to for a really long time, just by the way that the, Format

06:32is from the working doc that everybody’s in from the, like the mini challenges

06:36that Vitaly describes the curated content and all that kind of stuff.

06:41That’s really great.

06:42And the team’s really great too, that I’ve spoken to over the years of trying to,

06:46you know, kind of coordinate with them and yeah, so I highly recommend it if

06:49you’re going to be in New York like the second week of October yeah, definitely.

06:53Take a peek and see.

06:55What smashing is all about.

06:56I think it’s a really great conference.

06:57All right.

06:58So that’s kind of what’s next number two.

07:01And then the final what’s next dovetails a little bit into another

07:04reason why wireframe is, is kind of slowing down a little bit.

07:09And it’s because I have another project and it’s funny.

07:12Cause I wasn’t really planning on doing this up until maybe about a

07:17month or so ago, I just kind of hit me that I was like, I need to do this.


07:24So I was seeing a lot of the responses about Mise en Mode out there from the

07:29Clarity Talk that I did last November.

07:31And there’s a lot of buzz that’s been going around out there.

07:34There’s a lot of people reaching out to me for questions and

07:36feedback and all sorts of stuff.

07:38And I was in the middle of writing a blog post to kind of, like,

07:42continue on the discussion from my perspective about all the stuff

07:46that I’ve been kind of in my head.

07:49Synthesizing, analyzing, penalizing, whatever, right?

07:54And I’m writing this blog post and I’m seeing the read time increase up

07:58to like 15 minutes on this blog post.

08:00So immediately it’s like the largest blog post that I’ve ever written so far.

08:04Sans any of the specialized ones.

08:06And I’m looking at it and I’m like, I have so much more to say about this.


08:14And that’s when I realized that was like, I think I need to write a book.

08:20So that’s what I’m doing.

08:21So the plan is right now is that I’m in the process right now of

08:26writing a book on mise en mode.

08:28And I really, Believe that it is a important new way of thinking

08:34about the way that we execute design now in the 21st century I really

08:40do truly believe that, that we need to be thinking differently.

08:43I do a liken it to the paradigm shift that responsive design was for us.

08:48I, I liken it to, the paradigm shift that design tokens was for us.

08:52And I think it’s something that.

08:54People need to know about in a in depth way that is not just, you

09:00know, a 20 minute presentation of clarity for, limited audience that

09:04is not just the mode.place site.

09:06That is not just me retweeting people thinking about mise en mode.

09:11So I’m writing the book.

09:14At the moment right now, I think I’m about 11, 500 words in which

09:19by my estimate is sitting around, 25 to 35 percent of the book.

09:26And I have still lots more to write in terms of like timeline related stuff.

09:32I’m hoping to have a first draft.

09:36Somewhere around, let’s say maybe end of fall, early winter, unless

09:43I’m very, very adamant about.

09:46Getting this stuff done and making sure that I get all

09:49the thoughts on paper quickly.

09:50Typically when I sit down and write, I end up actually writing about

09:542000 words sitting down and writing.

09:56And to do that, actually go and commute to the mall and sit in the

10:01food court for three hours to do that.

10:05That’s been my escape from my own home.

10:09So so yeah, so that’s the, that’s what’s been going on right now in

10:12terms of the book related stuff.

10:13And there’s a couple of people that’ll be involved in that

10:16in, in various different forms.

10:18At the moment I’m just, again, trying to get that, that first draft put together

10:22so that going on to the next step.

10:24I plan to be self publishing in this way.

10:27I really don’t want to be waiting around for some publisher unless some publisher

10:32hears this and is like, Hey, let’s work together then I would consider it.

10:35But for right now I’m basically focusing on the self publishing route

10:38because I do want it to get out fast.

10:40But there are going to be some checks and balances in there.

10:43I’ll be looking into getting a proper editor to look over the stuff.

10:47So that’s what’s happening in there.

10:50And I’m very excited about it.

10:51But it does also mean that some of the things that I wanted to do this year

10:55are also taking a backseat because I can’t do all of these things.

10:58So one of the things that I was talking about for the first half of this year

11:02was a research study about component metrics that’s been shelved for the

11:08moment for while I get this book out, because like I said, the book is kind of

11:11more relevant to what’s going on today.

11:13And I think component metrics we can.

11:16Hold off on for a little while in terms of understanding that stuff, but there

11:21was a little bit of work that was done in there So I’m like I said, it’s gonna

11:24be shelved and I’m gonna probably return to it at some point after the book is

11:29out so a lot of the effort is trying to get this book out because like I said, I

11:33think it’s the most impactful work that I have done so far for the community.

11:41From a research standpoint or a strategy standpoint, or just the

11:46way of executing design standpoint.

11:48So, anyway if you want to learn more about Mise en Mode, because

11:52clearly I’m, I’m very passionate about it, you can go to mode.



11:55place is the site that I presented at Clarity.

11:59And you can, of course, ask me about whatever you like about You know, Mise

12:03en mode, or even really about the book.

12:05And I’m looking forward to to discussing about it and maybe get some new

12:09ideas and new directions about it.

12:11If, if something that’s interests you that would be really cool.

12:16And I think that’s basically it for updates.


12:19Again, it’s going to be like another shorter version of wireframe.

12:22I know last week’s was a short one too, but of course with the new guests that

12:27will be going onto the show, I expect, at least a half hour conversation, if not

12:32longer that will be really interesting.

12:35I will hope.

12:36So going all the way back to that, if you are interested, go ahead

12:39and submit something on that form.

12:41And I’m looking forward to talking with you about what you think

12:44about design development and disambiguation in our digital world.

12:49All right.

12:49So until then, I’ll see you on the internet.