00:49 Hey, good to see you.
00:50 Thanks for coming.
00:51 This is another episode of Wireframe, and today I’m going
00:54 to be talking about job postings.
00:57 Now, I wasn’t going to talk about this and I didn’t plan on talking about it.
01:00 I had some other things lined up, but I happen to have been browsing
01:03 around LinkedIn, and in that, you know, you see these cards that
01:08 have the job postings in there, and definitely going to take a look, right?
01:11 So, I’m popping in there, I’m looking, and I see this job posting,
01:16 And it’s for a high level, front end engineering role at a company.
01:21 I’m not gonna put the company’s name out there, because I’m about to put
01:24 them on blast for a couple of reasons.
01:27 By the way, because I’m a little fired up there’s definitely gonna be some
01:30 explicit language in here, so hide your kids, hide your wife put those
01:33 headphones on I might be cursing out here.
01:35 But here’s the situation, right?
01:37 I’m reading this job posting.
01:40 Okay.
01:40 And I’m, I already have a feeling.
01:42 I know what’s coming just from my experience with the company previously.
01:46 And what I’m about to read in terms of job titles, so I’m reading this thing
01:51 and it’s it, this job posting is huge.
01:53 They’re, they’re expecting all this stuff and granted it’s a high level role, right?
01:57 We’re talking, you know, staff level principal, that kind of thing over here.
02:00 Right.
02:00 So I’m reading this thing and going down.
02:02 I’m so okay.
02:02 Yep.
02:03 Yes, that’s fine.
02:04 Or whatever.
02:05 And again, in that job title right there, the role, it says the word front end.
02:09 Okay.
02:10 . So I’m expecting Something to talk about.
02:14 Frontend related technologies overall, you know, those kinds of expectations.
02:18 So in the qualifications, alright, it’s at the top of the qualifications.
02:23 I’m gonna, I’m gonna do this verbatim, so you can go ahead and
02:25 just find it yourself if you want.
02:27 Here is the bullet point that, that, you know, started me saying,
02:31 oh, okay, maybe this is good.
02:33 So it says strong systems architecture skills and experience working
02:38 with multiple interconnected systems and their UIs at scale.
02:43 Okay.
02:44 Keywords here, UIs, user interfaces, right?
02:47 So you need to be an expert in user interfaces, right?
02:50 It’s the second bullet point.
02:51 It’s that second bullet point right there.
02:53 Okay.
02:54 Now the next section talks about the technologies they’re going to use.
02:58 Okay.
02:59 I’m going to read off all of the technologies.
03:02 Okay.
03:02 And just pay attention and see if there’s anything that’s strange.
03:09 Alright, here we go.
03:10 We got React slash JavaScript, TypeScript, Vue.
03:15 js, Ruby on Rails, Go, Kotlin, GraphQL, Kafka, MySQL, AWS, Git,
03:23 Elasticsearch, Docker, CircleCI, Datadog.
03:29 That’s it.
03:31 Those are the technologies.
03:35 Clearly, when you think about front end, especially when you
03:39 mention that UI piece, is there something that’s missing in there?
03:43 Yeah.
03:45 HTML and CSS.
03:47 It’s missing.
03:48 100 percent missing.
03:50 No regard for the expertise That many of us in the field have in
03:57 that mentioned here at all, right?
03:59 Now, maybe that’s like table stakes, right?
04:01 Because again, the high level engineer kind of situation here.
04:04 And certainly in terms of the system level stuff they’re looking for.
04:07 Yeah.
04:07 Okay.
04:08 You’re going to be doing a lot of interconnection systems,
04:09 but that UI piece, the top of the bullet points, right?
04:12 Like I said, it’s the second bullet point.
04:13 First one’s talking about years of experience.
04:15 So where is it?
04:18 And this is something we’re seeing over and over and over again.
04:23 In our job postings out there about these roles, right?
04:27 Now, this particular company, I’m going to tell you a story about that because
04:29 years and years ago, I was looking for my next gig after my first one.
04:36 So I got hired into a startup and I was having a good time in there, learning
04:40 all this stuff, you know, being a part of a small team and just you
04:44 know, shipping features and exploring all that stuff was really great.
04:49 But You know, you want to grow, right?
04:51 You want to go to the next thing.
04:52 So this company, I, I was I don’t know if there was a recruiter that
04:55 talked to me or if I talked to them initially, who initiated, but eventually
05:00 I was going in for a, front end.
05:02 Engineer role.
05:04 Okay.
05:04 It said, blah, blah, blah, front end, you know, engineer.
05:09 It’s like, that’s me.
05:09 I, you know, I, granted I wasn’t in the world long enough to really have, you
05:15 know, the nuanced opinion I have now about it, but I knew what front end engineering
05:19 was, that’s definitely what I was doing.
05:21 HTML, CSS, JavaScript, you know, everything browser based
05:25 that’s the front end, right?
05:27 So talking with the in house recruiter for them, and in that conversation,
05:32 you know, she mentioned that, Yeah, it’s a front end role, but
05:36 everyone’s kind of full stack here.
05:39 I said, okay, well, you know, I have some experience with, like, PHP and
05:44 MySQL, But not enough for me to feel comfortable with any of that stuff.
05:48 So, like, you know, if it’s gonna be like the on the job kind of learning
05:52 scenario, Okay, maybe I could play around.
05:55 So anyway, I do the phone screen with this company and It’s a
06:02 front end focused phone screen.
06:04 There’s you know, some algo question or whatever I don’t even remember these
06:06 questions honestly But you know then we get to start the talking at the end of
06:10 the interview and this person again Tells me, Hey, yeah, you know, it’s a, it’s
06:14 a front end role, but it’s a full stack kind of, you know, thing for everybody.
06:17 I said, okay, that’s interesting.
06:20 I mean, it’s the second time I’ve heard that now.
06:23 So I ended up going, you know, for their onsite after that.
06:26 So it’s the usual, like, you know, gauntlet of five interviews, lots
06:30 of different people that you’re gonna be talking to and in the
06:32 morning was actually really good.
06:33 Like I spoke with, I guess, I guess it was one of the hiring managers.
06:37 I had another technical interview that was front and focused.
06:39 Although that was good.
06:40 Have a lunch and I come on back.
06:42 I’m sitting in the room and these two engineers come in and they start saying,
06:49 all right, so the task for now is we’re going to talk about how we might
06:53 architect a set of database tables.
06:57 I’m like, oh, okay.
07:01 So, I tell him up front, I said, look, this is not what I do.
07:05 Just letting you know, straight up, you know, this is, I was understanding
07:09 this as a front end role, right?
07:10 I know everybody’s full stack here.
07:12 I keep hearing that I’m a front end person.
07:15 I, my expertise is in the front end.
07:17 So if you want me to come up here and fix your front end
07:20 that’s what you’re hiring to do.
07:22 You’re not, you know, a full stack person.
07:24 If you want a full stack person that doesn’t have my expertise then that
07:28 should have been the role, not this one.
07:30 So that’s how I’m feeling about that time.
07:32 I’m flopping around during that session, and I’m feeling like shit, right?
07:37 I’m like, I’m second guessing myself, I got that imposter syndrome running
07:41 around now, I’m just like, hold on a second, like, Am I mistaken about what
07:47 my role is in all of this ecosystem?
07:49 Like, am I not a front end engineer?
07:52 You know, is it common for front end engineers to actually be full stack?
07:56 Now we come to find out that, unfortunately, now in the year
08:00 2024, the answer is yes, actually.
08:03 And Brad Frost has of course talked about the front of the front ends,
08:06 like that’s Truly where we are.
08:08 And it’s, it’s clearly front of the front end.
08:11 You’ll never see in a job title that just doesn’t exist.
08:15 Right.
08:15 But we are coming up to have these job titles, similar ones.
08:20 I’ve been speaking a lot about that recently, but that’s the thing that’s
08:23 grinding my gears right now, right?
08:24 You see these titles that LinkedIn and other job posting sites, and
08:30 they claim to be front end, and then you read down to the nitty gritty
08:36 and you find out it’s actually.
08:39 Either a full stack engineer that they’re looking for, right?
08:42 Someone who’s looking for go and Kotlin and graph QL and my SQL Kafka.
08:47 You’re looking for more than a full stack person, right?
08:49 Because that’s, that’s, we’re talking about different
08:52 platforms at that point, right?
08:54 With things like Kotlin, right?
08:56 That’s not the web at all.
08:59 So they don’t know what they’re looking for.
09:01 Bottom line, but.
09:05 Even folks that are looking for front end in the job title, right?
09:11 They might be looking for full stack or what this is really turning into
09:16 these days is a JavaScript engineer.
09:19 They sit in the JavaScript ecosystem and all they do is write JavaScript and maybe
09:25 There’s some HTML and CSS that happens in there, but they’re not experts in that.
09:29 No, they’ve been writing in frameworks like React or Angular or Vue and in that
09:34 ecosystem, working with, you know, things like hooks or what’s the new one now.
09:39 Signals.
09:39 That’s the new one.
09:40 So, all of these different JavaScript ecosystems, , that’s
09:44 what front end is now.
09:46 When people say front end, what they really mean, typically,
09:51 is JavaScript engineer.
09:52 Okay?
09:54 If you are an expert in HTML and CSS and, you know, DOM manipulation
09:59 kind of JavaScript, you are not a front end engineer anymore in
10:03 the world of these job postings.
10:05 In the world of these job postings, you are actually a, what has been
10:11 called a couple of different things.
10:13 What’s been getting a lot of traction recently is the title of Design Engineer.
10:18 I have some feelings about that that I’ll share in a minute.
10:20 But you’ll find things like Design Engineer, you’ll find things like UX
10:24 Engineer, you’ll find UI Engineer.
10:27 You’ll find a design technologist, or just, you know, of course,
10:30 replacing engineer with technologist in many of those cases.
10:33 So, those are the things that you are.
10:36 You end up being this hybrid role between design and development.
10:41 Even if you don’t associate yourself as being a designer.
10:46 You sit there.
10:47 And the reason that you end up sitting there is because With that expertise
10:50 that you have with HTML and CSS, there is an innate quality about you.
10:57 I’m, I’m, and I’m just blanking on everybody with this right now.
11:00 There’s an innate quality about you that you care about that user interface.
11:05 And because you care about that user interface, there is a
11:07 design quality A user experience quality that you hold with you.
11:13 Okay?
11:14 That’s what you really are.
11:18 Okay?
11:20 How the industry has, has moved away from front end engineering, meaning what it
11:26 used to mean, which again is really what we used to do as web development, right?
11:30 Like that whole front end ecosystem.
11:32 Now that the front end world has gotten so much more complicated with, you know
11:38 npm packages and Webpack and eventually now Vite, which is much better, but
11:43 that’s another side, but it became so much more complicated than it used to be.
11:48 And that’s also for better or for worse.
11:50 It’s that there’s a natural progression in there that I wholly have empathy for,
11:55 but going back to these titles, right.
11:59 The folks that are writing HTML and CSS as in this expert way.
12:04 All right.
12:04 These are the folks that are now design engineers, UX engineers,
12:08 design technologists, and finding roles for us has been a challenge
12:15 for lots of different reasons.
12:16 Number one, we still haven’t really decided on this name yet.
12:20 Okay.
12:21 You got Google who’s got UX engineers, Microsoft’s got UX engineers, right?
12:25 Those have been staples for a while, and design engineer is ended ending up being a
12:29 more broad term that covers a lot more and Kind of encroaches a little bit in some
12:35 other facets that are not necessarily UX.
12:38 I think that’s what’s going on there.
12:39 I mean, before design engineer was a role, it really just was UX engineer,
12:45 design technologist, that those are the two roles and they were essentially
12:48 the same person and the way that I disambiguated it was that a UX engineer.
12:55 Was a person that was full time on a app development team.
12:59 You would say like a, a, a Gmail or a notion or any of those like application
13:04 development teams that, you know, we’re working on a singular application or
13:08 singular platform that was meant to be grown over time and, and made better.
13:13 Right.
13:14 And I would, On the flip side, see a design technologist and see that often
13:18 be assigned to the same kind of role, but a person who had worked in agency work.
13:24 So this is a person that’s looking at new technologies and trying to implement them
13:28 in a fancy way, elegant way, gorgeous way.
13:31 And it ends up being more of a churn kind of scenario where you end
13:36 up not really growing necessarily a single product, but you’re.
13:40 Affecting multiple products with a lot of you know, like I said, churn as it keeps
13:44 coming out with different, different new and interesting ideas for these different
13:48 brands that you might be working with.
13:49 But effectively, again, the same role.
13:51 It’s just whether you are an agency or in an app or platform team.
13:56 But now, you know, this is merging a little bit.
13:59 And I think that’s where the design engineer thing is coming in where we’re
14:01 kind of merging those two things together.
14:03 And that role has been getting a lot of traction, a lot of blog posts
14:07 out there, a lot of people who are recognizing the amazing impact of
14:12 what we do as design engineers.
14:14 I mean, think about it, right?
14:16 Think about some person who is not only able to think of.
14:24 a novel idea or novel experience or novel concept that they Think would be really
14:29 cool and then they are able to not only design it But also make it work make
14:36 it come to life Imagine that imagine a person who could just go ahead and
14:39 say oh, I have a really good idea Let me just build that that’s what we are.
14:46 We are And I’m not going to, I don’t want to say better than designers, but we’re
14:51 more formidable to be able to take this idea, this design idea that we might
14:57 have and then see it all the way through.
15:03 Right to launch, right?
15:05 There is so much power in that, right?
15:08 Meanwhile, again, that design vertical has to really kind of
15:12 stop at the prototype phase.
15:15 It’s as far as Figma can go, right?
15:17 Or any other platform.
15:19 And then those strict engineers, right?
15:20 Those JavaScript engineers or the full stack ones.
15:23 They don’t have the capability to of making something that
15:29 a user really wants to use.
15:31 Sure, maybe other engineers, certainly, yes.
15:33 But when we’re talking about the masses, right, creating a product
15:38 that is engaging, that’s a skill that the designers typically usually have,
15:44 but not a lot of engineers, right?
15:46 Those engineers typically, again, this is all just, You know, stereotypical kind of
15:49 stuff, but the engineers, they’re really thinking about, you know, those big O
15:53 notations and comp sci related stuff and trying to make things really performant
15:58 and optimize and all that stuff, and there’s a lot of good qualities in that
16:01 too, but that In the middle, right?
16:04 Being able to have that idea and launch it, right?
16:07 Just boom, it’s out there.
16:10 I don’t understand why they’re not hiring us by the dozens, right?
16:15 For folks that have some idea some inkling of a new startup idea, those
16:21 people should be hiring UX engineers or design engineers immediately.
16:25 It should be the first freaking hire, right?
16:27 Just, what’s this idea?
16:28 Boom, get it out there right now, right?
16:30 I think that would be the most effective use of anybody’s resources.
16:35 But again, it’s wild to me that, that it’s only really being recognized now.
16:39 And I’ve wrote about this as a UX engineer.
16:42 On my blog.
16:43 And the title of that was UX engineer, a terminal career 1.
16:47 And I’d speak about that in that post because as a UX engineer, I was in a
16:54 situation where yes, I was believing to be able to create great value for
16:59 the company I was working at, but the career ladder was non existent, right?
17:05 Us UX engineers.
17:06 Okay, great.
17:06 You hire us and then you throw us either in a design org or the engineering org.
17:11 And unfortunately, that manager is used to managing a particular kind of
17:18 employee, a designer or an engineer.
17:22 And what happens there is that, that manager looks at you and goes, Well,
17:28 you’re not doing all the things that the designer would do, so I don’t
17:31 know if you’re able to be promoted.
17:34 You gotta do more stuff.
17:35 You gotta be more designery Or, on the engineering side, you’re
17:38 not engineer enough, right?
17:40 You’re not, you’re not doing all the things the engineer, I can’t promote you.
17:43 And we get stuck.
17:45 We get stuck because these managers are stuck in their verticals.
17:49 They all they know is design or they all they know is engineering.
17:52 It takes a proper UX engineering track places like Google and
17:58 Microsoft have these that are able to, to grow these people there.
18:05 And it’s a challenge.
18:05 It’s a challenge.
18:06 It’s getting better out there slowly, but surely.
18:08 But that’s the thing that drives me nuts.
18:11 So, like I said, this job posting, just fired me the hell up.
18:17 Just fires me the hell up there, you know, in terms of what I’m seeing in the
18:21 world of our roles out there and trying to find something that fits us, right?
18:29 And that’s, that’s what I’m gonna bring out today.
18:32 If you’re out there and you have a conversation that you want to have
18:35 about design engineering or the related fields, I’m absolutely able.
18:40 And willing to talk about this stuff.
18:43 I, as you could tell, I’m super passionate about this kind of field.
18:49 This is what we do as being something incredible.
18:53 And I have a great value for the rest of us in this industry.
18:57 So, but like I said, I didn’t, I didn’t expect to talk about this tonight,
19:01 but man, I just, I had a whole bunch of feelings that had to come out and
19:05 I hope it resonates with some of you folks that are out there about the.
19:08 The, the difficulties.
19:09 I know there’s people that are out there that have, you know, lost
19:12 their jobs on this kind of stuff.
19:14 And I want you to know that, that if you’re doing this kind of stuff that
19:20 I’m speaking about, you’re doing the right thing and keep doing it, right?
19:25 Hang out on CodePen, make some cool shit, you know, find out
19:29 about the newest, latest, greatest, you know, CSS properties, the
19:33 new JavaScript APIs and just, you know, Check this stuff out, right?
19:38 Because I think there will be more and more companies getting keen on what we
19:44 do and recognizing the benefit of this, this particular role that I’m talking
19:51 about, you know, design engineering.
19:52 And I think it’s going to be great.
19:54 I have actually one more anecdote, which is really cool.
19:56 And I mentioned about this in that blog post.
20:00 And in that blog post, I mention that I was given the title of
20:06 design engineer back in 2001.
20:10 So that was 23 years ago.
20:13 And the context where I was given that title is interesting.
20:19 And I’m gonna take the rest of the time for the episode right now to kind of
20:22 explain it because I think it’s really So, back in high school, I was with the
20:29 student council and I wasn’t elected into the student council, but I would
20:32 do stuff with the student council.
20:35 I loved having extracurricular activities.
20:37 I was always after school doing something.
20:39 And one of the things that was happening in the years that I was in
20:43 high school is that the student council would create floats for homecoming.
20:48 So they would be, you know, these different themes that
20:51 all the grades would get.
20:53 And in the workings of this, I ended up kind of taking charge as the person who
21:01 would design the float and also begin executing the large portions of it.
21:06 So the first year I got involved was my 10th grade year and the whole theme was
21:10 cereals and my class got Fruit Loops.
21:15 And I was just visiting them because I was like, Oh, I didn’t
21:17 know what this was all about.
21:18 So I was visiting them, and they were like, Yeah, we have Fruit
21:20 Loops, and we’re trying to make, you know, A cereal box with chicken
21:24 wire and, and wood, and, you know.
21:26 So I’m looking at it and I go, You know, it would be really cool if like, Toucan
21:30 Sam’s nose, like, came out of the box.
21:32 And they’re like, We don’t know how you would possibly do that.
21:36 I said, oh, that’s easy.
21:37 Now, meanwhile, never working with chicken wire before.
21:40 This is the first time we’re gonna work with chicken wire.
21:42 And I’m like, oh, this should be easy.
21:44 I just go ahead and make a cone out of chicken wire, slap it on the
21:46 box, and then all the other students can fill it up with pretty colors.
21:51 That’s exactly what we did.
21:53 I think I also made like a spoon, a large spoon like that as well.
21:56 And the class ended up getting fourth place out of the four.
21:59 You know, classes there, but they really appreciated the ability
22:04 that I had to go ahead and like, think of an idea and make it.
22:08 So the following year they gave me full reign on designing the float.
22:13 So I designed this float and the topic was cities.
22:18 And the senior class got New York, of course.
22:20 So us, as the junior class, we got Las Vegas.
22:23 I was like, perfect, I know exactly what to do with Las Vegas.
22:25 So I had three main attractions that I wanted to, to add in there.
22:29 The first one that I I Remember doing was the slot machine.
22:36 So the idea behind the slot machine was gonna be a big slot machine It’s
22:39 probably about eight foot tall and in the slot machine would have space
22:43 for two people and there would be these rollers that would have you know
22:48 symbols on them and the person behind them would roll the you know, the you
22:52 know, the sevens and the slots and all that stuff that would be going behind.
22:54 So as the float’s going around, you could see the thing moving.
22:57 But the really cool thing about that slot machine was that there was a
23:00 bed of money that I printed out.
23:02 Fake money, of course.
23:03 And I had a person with a leaf blower there that when we were passing, like,
23:08 basically where the judging area was gonna be, I told him to, you know,
23:11 turn on the Leaf blower and the money just exploded out of the slot machine.
23:18 So cool, right?
23:20 so the other thing I had was I had the the sphinx from Luxor I think it was there at
23:26 the time that I that I put on the end and I had a bulldog face on it because that
23:29 Was our mascot so I made that completely out of papier mâché And chicken wire.
23:33 So it actually looked like a bulldog.
23:35 I wish I had pictures I’m sure they’re flying around somewhere.
23:37 But so we made that on the one side and then the other side I think, they were
23:41 designed to be playing cards, I think.
23:44 Like all four sides, but, I don’t think we had enough time, so we
23:48 ended up making like a big square, or cube die, right there on the end.
23:52 So that’s what we had there, and, we did actually pretty good, we ended
23:56 up getting second place for that one.
23:58 The seniors got first place.
23:59 And it was traditional, actually, for the seniors to get first place,
24:02 because they’re on their way out anyway.
24:04 Because we got second place they really, you know, put a lot of responsibility in
24:09 me, and saying, you know, they gave me a lot of praise for all that design, and
24:12 executing it, and, and having that happen.
24:15 So The next year, as a senior year, you’d think, Oh, shoo in, right?
24:20 We’re a senior year, we get to pick, you know, out of the theme, and, you
24:24 know, Donnie’s here, he’s gonna go ahead and knock it out of the park, right?
24:28 Well, this particular year, we had theme parks as the theme, and we
24:35 were able to choose Disney World.
24:37 I don’t think I actually chose myself, I don’t remember, but I think, you know,
24:40 the class ended up choosing it somehow.
24:42 So Walt Disney World.
24:43 So I was gonna go ahead and design the three parks, right?
24:46 I was gonna have Magic Kingdom Castle, I was gonna have the Epcot
24:49 Ball, and then I think I was gonna do the Water Tower, that’s what was
24:53 there at MGM Studios at the time.
24:55 So I was gonna have the three things, it would be very clear about, you
24:57 know, what was happening there.
24:58 And, The thing that I really wanted to do, just like last year, was
25:04 I wanted some very interactive kind of piece in the whole thing.
25:11 Now, I was thinking about those, those three things, and I was like,
25:13 the best thing that could be really cool as interactive is the Epcot
25:17 ball opening up to present something like 2001, which was our class.
25:23 So like, opening that up and then, you know, that would be really cool.
25:26 Almost like a kind of, almost explosion like.
25:30 So.
25:31 I’m designing that.
25:32 I had like even a prototype, physical prototype, a small
25:36 scale of how that would work.
25:39 It is actually using some tensegrity to make it so that the supports
25:43 didn’t show up in the front because it was gonna go ahead and be
25:47 in the way of the ball opening.
25:49 And then I had the Magic Kingdom Castle and then the Water Tower.
25:52 Those two things were stationary objects for the most part, so nothing crazy there.
25:56 But it was that EPCOT ball that I was like focusing a lot of my attention on.
26:00 So, we were getting to build, and some of the volunteers that were working
26:05 with us in terms of like the adults that would do a lot more of the you know,
26:09 the, I guess some of the stuff that we didn’t have the experience in doing,
26:13 they’re looking at my designs and going, I don’t think this is going to work.
26:19 And I’m like, I’m More than confident that this is going to work because like
26:23 I said, I’ve done the research like I did prototype You know, I have drawings.
26:28 I got you know, the physical like the physical prototype obviously
26:30 as well It’s it’s gonna work.
26:32 You got to trust me on this.
26:35 I don’t trust you and I was so Disappointed so much so that I
26:45 left I just went up and left and I didn’t come back to help them.
26:49 I left them stranded and I feel bad about it.
26:51 Looking back on it, I was, you know, teenager, right?
26:53 I was 17 years old, you know, I, I don’t know how to handle my feelings.
26:59 So but yeah, I left cause I, you know, they put so much trust in me over
27:03 the number of years to get this done.
27:05 Why, why would it change?
27:07 Right.
27:08 That’s the thing, the thing that was really bothering me, but I say all
27:12 this because At graduation, there’s a, like, the front row when you are,
27:19 you know, getting your, your degrees and, and whatnot, your diplomas.
27:22 That front row is dedicated to student council.
27:27 And I was in the front row because the student council, Even after all that,
27:32 even after leaving them, gave me the title of design engineer for our class.
27:38 Made it up.
27:39 And I didn’t give them that title, they did.
27:41 They, they said that that was the thing that was most appropriate to,
27:45 to give me as kind of a recognition for the stuff that I, I did.
27:51 You know, and I felt really, you know, great about that particular piece.
27:56 So clearly I feel passionate about this stuff.
28:00 It’s in my blood.
28:00 It’s been my DNA.
28:02 So I’m super interested to know how you folks are feeling out there.
28:07 When it comes to Your place in the world, you know, and the things that
28:12 you’re passionate about, the things that you want to do, the things that
28:14 you want to contribute to society, and hopefully get paid for that.
28:18 So, let me know what you think.
28:19 Tweet at me, WireframeFM.
28:21 . And I hope to hear some cool stories, and thanks for joining me on this.
28:28 See ya.
